Politics Oppo

"SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman" (dasborgen) 02/24/2016 at 07:09 • Filed to: None

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pip bip - choose Corrour > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 07:12

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yep , couldn’t agree more!

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 07:19

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http://motherboard.vice.com/en_uk/read/ber…

My citroen won't start > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 07:22

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But which one of these sides has the most coo coo for cocoa puffs candidates?

Scary__goongala! > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 07:28

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I really wish we didn’t have political parties.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > My citroen won't start 02/24/2016 at 07:48

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[Caution! Political correctness field has been disabled!]

That’s easy: Democrats.

However, for some reason the democrats love to lock away those showing outward signs of mental illness, keeping them hidden from public view in most cases. Their candidates are very stealthy in hiding their insanity from the public until they are elected.

Republicans, on the other hand, for reasons I cannot grasp, refuse to limit the mentally ill in their ranks, instead choosing to venerate and run them for public office. They only like to take freedom from those doing things they don’t like (which democrats also do, but republicans do it for things like being within a one-mile radius of marijuana) or those with a skin tone (which democrats deny doing, while doing it).

[Field restored! Now you can return to your regularly-scheduled discussions about unreliable old German, French, and Italian cars.]

My citroen won't start > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 02/24/2016 at 07:49

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I think your answer and your explanation don’t really match.

450X_FTW > Scary__goongala! 02/24/2016 at 07:52

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Only thing they do is divide us.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > My citroen won't start 02/24/2016 at 07:55

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Just look at the presidential candidates. Republicans have like 20 crazies that are obviously crazy running. Democrats locked the obvious crazies away, but they’re all Trojan horses. With the republicans, you know they’re defective. With the democrats, you only realize it after they are in office. There were far more crazies hoping to get into the democrat race, but they locked up those showing it.

450X_FTW > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 07:57

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Think I finally figured out what political party I belong to, that is I’m a Libertarian Socialist. I believe in personal freedoms and the idea that if it does not harm others and you want to do it, so be it, you can do it, that’s your freedom. If you want to eat a triple bacon cheeseburger with nacho cheese covered fries and a 64 oz Coke, do it. As soon as Rand Paul starts using religion to justify his arguments, that’s where I draw the line. On the other end, I feel I make good money with my career, so I’m OK with my taxes helping those that don’t have the same means to help themselves like I do. Kind of like being anti-selfish really. But when Sanders starts talking about assault weapons bans, that’s where I draw the line.

My citroen won't start > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 02/24/2016 at 08:01

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But if the Republicans accept and idolize the crazies and the democrats hide them, doesn’t that mean the entire GOP is insane? It’s one thing to hide the racist bigot idiot because you now he is all those things, but to encourage that means that they must be that too.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > My citroen won't start 02/24/2016 at 08:12

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I don’t know. Just what I notice about them. Stealth crazy is in some ways worse than wearing your crazy on your sleeve. I’d rather know what they’ll do than question it.

Both parties are extremely disturbing to me for different reasons. They're both fundamentally insane.

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:12

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The best way

Patrick Nichols > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:13

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Bernie has a track record of being against gun laws actually. If he is talking about them now it's only to get more in line with the party.

450X_FTW > Patrick Nichols 02/24/2016 at 08:17

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He has been against them in past time, against the Brady bill, against manufacturers being held responsible for stupid gun owners, and I agree with those.

My citroen won't start > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 02/24/2016 at 08:18

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The whole american two-party system is insane, and somehow their greatest fear is the communist regimes with where one or two parties run everything

450X_FTW > V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches 02/24/2016 at 08:20

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Agree, but for me the Libertarians also want to run a business how they want, ability to refuse service because of race, religion, etc, don’t want to raise minimum wage, that I can’t agree with. I’m also pro women doing whatever they want with their bodies, which I don’t hear much from on Paul’s side

Round headlight enthusiast > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 08:20

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Usually my Facebook feed is all people who REALLY like Bernie Sanders vs people who REALLY dislike Obama

450X_FTW > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 08:21

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Also liberals want to ban guns to stop mass shootings, conservatives want to ban muslims to stop terrorism. I’m in the middle thinking “ both of you guys are retarded"

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:24

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That’s not Libertarian Socialism; see Welfare Capitalism.

V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:24

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I agree completely. I just can't stand either of the major parties.

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:26

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Here’s the problem: if 40+% is still nowhere near enough, what possible amount will be? Exactly how much is “fair share”?
(Actual numbers not expected, when government plays Santa the answer will always be “more”).

My bird IS the word > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:30

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I think being libertarian and socialist is mutually exclusive. You are a centrist I believe.

For Sweden > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 08:32

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Hello Sir can you point me to the candidate who is both a rock star and can push everyone around? I want to live vicariously though this candidate. It distracts me from the numerous bad decisions I’ve made.

450X_FTW > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 02/24/2016 at 08:32

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Yes and no. Capitalism is always about rich getting richer. If companies paid their employees better we wouldn’t need so much financial assistance from taxpayers

450X_FTW > V12 Jake- Hittin' Switches 02/24/2016 at 08:33

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Need candidates in the middle.

450X_FTW > samssun 02/24/2016 at 08:33

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40% of what not enough?

450X_FTW > My bird IS the word 02/24/2016 at 08:34

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I am in the middle very much. There’s no one political party that I can side with. Has to be a combination of them

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Round headlight enthusiast 02/24/2016 at 08:48

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I’ve said this to people before and they look at me like I’m crazy. I’m glad I’m not the one who tries to make an retain friends on both sides of the political spectrum.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:49

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Is this a thing? Could we start it? Because I agree with everything you just said.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:49

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People tend to forget how Capitalism is single handedly responsible for bring most of the world out of complete poverty.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 08:49

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I think you described me to a T also.

450X_FTW > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 02/24/2016 at 08:53

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Full on capitalism puts people into poverty. When companies don’t pay their employees a living wage, but still work 40 hours a week, then the taxpayers end up footing the bill to help those people survive.

450X_FTW > Snuze: Needs another Swede 02/24/2016 at 08:54

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Chris Rock had a good quote on it “conservatives are idiots, liberals are idiots, republicans are idiots, democrats are idiots, just be a damn person”

Snuze: Needs another Swede > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 09:00

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Never heard that, but I like it. My quote has always been “Everyone is an asshole. Everyone.”

One time my wife asked me if that included her, I made the mistake of telling her “Especially you”

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > My citroen won't start 02/24/2016 at 09:00

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Put it this way, mass murderers are almost always the quiet ones. 9/10 loud, arrogant assholes aren’t really as much of a threat.

450X_FTW > Snuze: Needs another Swede 02/24/2016 at 09:01

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Our spouses know how much of an asshole we truly are. And vice versa

wiffleballtony > Patrick Nichols 02/24/2016 at 09:04

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Pretty sure that’d be a sure fire way to lose his congressional seat, based on Vermont gun laws.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 09:04

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Isn’t that the truth.

My citroen won't start > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2016 at 09:07

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That is an interesting thought. On the other hand, mass murderers are usually racist, homophobic, overtly-religous (whatever that religion ma be) people.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > My citroen won't start 02/24/2016 at 09:16

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That’s assuming that only one side is heavily biased on either of those. You can be a crazy atheist, environmentalist, or insert liberal agenda. Last I checked, one side backs a religion that has been responsible(in the same way Christianity is a responsible for anything else) for most of the recent terrorist attacks.

My citroen won't start > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2016 at 09:21

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You can be a crazy atheist, environmentalist or any liberal agenda, but those usually aren’t the ones causing trouble. The only people backing religions are the republicans. The rest just want religion to be a personal thing and not affect politics.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > My citroen won't start 02/24/2016 at 09:24

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Yeah, but hurt feelings =/= violence, which has been backed by at least a few Democrats. For example: Fast and Furious, which supplied weapons to drug cartels. Then there is the whole Benghazi thing.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 09:28

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I think your definition of poverty is misused. Companies will pay what the market rate for your labor. If they pay to high above that rate, they likely go out of business and then you lose jobs. Take your pick.

My citroen won't start > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2016 at 09:32

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Yeah, but international shitty politics will always exist, look at the war on drugs, or the iraq war, all massive failures that probably resulted in more powerful terror organizations instead of solving a problem, and these were backed by both parties.

But not by Bernie, of course.

450X_FTW > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 02/24/2016 at 09:34

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The cost for basic living is higher than what the companies pay for minimum wage though. The minimum wage is supposed to follow inflation but it doesn’t.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 09:47

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The minimum wage is supposed to follow inflation but it doesn’t.

This would be conjecture. Maybe it should, but it isn’t “supposed to” by its current design. Additionally, most minimum wage jobs don’t add enough economic value to justify a higher wage.

not for canada - australian in disguise > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 02/24/2016 at 09:47

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As a Canadian, I find the American system of the Conservatives being “red” and the liberals being “blue” very odd. It’s the exact opposite here.

BigBlock440 > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:00

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Most companies don’t pay minimum wage though. Something like 3% of the entire workforce makes minimum wage. That includes teenagers working part-time in high school.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:07

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I want to agree, but people are always gaming the system. I call myself a militant centrist. Confused is maybe a better term.

I don’t think any government, no matter how benevolent in its wishes can actually RUN an economy. They just have the motivations that don’t use our resources the best way BUT (butt?) we have to have stern regulations. Pollution..wait for it... is a subsidy. Pollution is telling a business you keep the profits and we’ll clean up the mess later. ‘Public health’ is a subsidy to private profit. A USN carrier group in the Persian Gulf or Indian Ocean every calendar day for the last 45 years is a subsidy to private profit. TIF is a subsidy.

I love shooting sports and I believe in the ‘bloody revolution’ side of the 2nd amendment. BUT (butt?) I think gun owners have whipped up the second amendment into the Golden Calf of the old testament. The NRA turns mass murders into fund-raising opportunities. It’s fucking criminal. The more harm is done to our society, the more it proves the 2nd amendment is doing its job. It’s insanity and the reign of The Gun™ is in dire need of a decline.

Much like you, I don’t mind paying taxes and while I don’t believe in flat taxes, I do believe in a lowering of the tax rate and wholesale elimination of deductions. Make the corporate tax rate a lowly 5% on GROSS receipts. Everyone knows everyone else’s burden. No breaks for capital gains, no deductions for the green industry, nothing. You make a dollar in America, you send a nickel. Foreign or domestic. Same for personal taxes. All deductions get rolled back to nothing. If they still like arts in New York, then they can still have arts councils, but they tax payers don’t lose out because of it. Same for churches. Same for charities. And major league penalties for trying to weasel out of it,corporate and personal

I could go on. I don’t think either of the lame parties care what I think, but I don’t see anyone else out there quite like me.

My political party logo will be a picnic table that has a shotgun and a zucchini crossed above it.

450X_FTW > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 02/24/2016 at 10:15

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I like your style. Now I want to go skeet shooting too.

450X_FTW > BigBlock440 02/24/2016 at 10:18

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Problem is when the minimum wage is too low, and the workers need government assistance to meet minimum standards of living, it creates a tax break for the company and makes the taxpayers end up footing the bill to cover the gap. For me, I think those big companies, Walmart, Mcdonalds, etc, should be the ones getting the bill

BigBlock440 > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:27

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But where will teenagers work? It prices them right out of the market. Every time the minimum wage has been raised, unemployment among young people has increased. No experience or work history makes it even harder to get a decent job when they get older. The number of adults working at minimum wage is so low, it’s not worth increasing unemployment just to stick it to Walmart. Pay half their income because they’re only working a minimum wage job, or pay their full income because they’re now unemployed.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:28

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Shooting trap is one of the coolest things.

450X_FTW > BigBlock440 02/24/2016 at 10:30

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That’s where I’m ok with a “minimum wage bracket” if you will. 16 and under is one wage bracket, 17 and 18, another wage, 19 to 21 another wage. Not huge differences, but enough that the 28 year old working to support his family isn’t making the same as the mouth breather 16 year old that lives off his parents. With age, comes experience, and with experience comes better pay.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:31

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Ha! We’ve hijacked the thread you and me.

You wanna know what drives the criminally low minimum wage? The MARKETING department. The marketing department wants the Dollar Menu and the Dollar Menu cannot exist at $18/hour. If they would go to the Three Dollar menu, they could ‘afford’ it.

We’ve rolled back prices. You used to pay more for this, but we hammered our suppliers into working for a loss and taught our employees how to make ‘soup’ out of hot water and ketchup so we can pass the saving on to you!

See? It’s marketing. It’s the perception of ‘cheaper.’

450X_FTW > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 02/24/2016 at 10:34

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when big companies say “we can’t afford higher minimum wage” what they really mean is “we cannot afford to pay the workers more and keep my $10 million a year salary”

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > BigBlock440 02/24/2016 at 10:44

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Actual measurable facts show that employers do not fire a bunch of people because of raised minimum wage. It’s a myth everyone wants to believe, it ‘sounds’ right, but cities where wages go up do not see the falling employment.

Are there some losers? Yep. But on the whole, economic activity for the poor rises.

BigBlock440 > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:45

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That opens up questions of fairness (same work, lower pay), but it does address the issue of what most people think the minimum wage is for. Of course that could also lead to other consequences of then having the upper brackets unemployable (I’ll hire this teenager for less), though that would likely only be in jobs that could be populated by high school kids. And since very few adults work at the minimum wage anyway, it probably won’t be widespread.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > 450X_FTW 02/24/2016 at 10:45

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But they are WORTH it. Just ask the other members on the board of directors who all sit on each other’s boards, who all sit on each other’s boards, who all sit on each other’s board.

BigBlock440 > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 02/24/2016 at 10:50

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No they don’t fire, they just don’t hire. Actual measurable facts show that every time the federal minimum wage has increased, the unemployment rate among the youngest bracket has increased significantly.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > BigBlock440 02/24/2016 at 10:58

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flat wages for decades has had more to do with the lack of hiring than any wage increase.

450X_FTW > BigBlock440 02/24/2016 at 11:04

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We do see some of that now, I’ve seen it in the engineering field, it’s cheaper to layoff the designer who’s been working for the company for 20 years making $120k, then bring in a young designer fresh out of college and start them at $45k a year.

My two biggest issues though are with unpaid internships, which is BS, and student teaching, where people getting their education degree have to PAY for their internship, even bigger BS.

BigBlock440 > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 02/24/2016 at 11:25

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You’re saying that decreasing or steady worker cost increases unemployment, while increasing labor cost decreases unemployment? First time I’ve heard that hypothesis.

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/25/2016 at 01:03

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Taxation (Feds alone)

samssun > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 02/25/2016 at 01:08

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Charging 5% of gross receipts doesn’t make any sense, because different businesses have wildly different inherent costs, and many have margins near or below 5%. Energy production, autos, utilities, retail, restaurants, and most commodities would be facing 100-300% tax rates.

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/25/2016 at 01:12

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They’re trying to implement differential minimum wages in Michigan, in places where for example black youth unemployment is 50% because the mandated wage is far above what their inexperienced/uneducated labor is worth.

But the usual poverty pimps have come out of the woodwork to declare what an injustice it is, so the kids will probably remain unemployed, unemployable, and on the dole.

450X_FTW > samssun 02/25/2016 at 07:08

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Guess then people doing any form of manual labor are all over paid, since that can’t possibly require an education right?

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/25/2016 at 08:02

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I don’t know if you’re just being argumentative, but you pulled that out of thin air. We’re not talking about expert underwater welders, we’re talking about kids and dropouts who can’t even show a prospective employer they’ll come in on time.

A lot of people have no experience or skills, limiting them to entry-level jobs that don’t create much value. Making it more expensive to hire them pushes the first rung of the ladder higher, and lowers the relative cost of automation.

So you keep kids unemployed, and the “fight for 15" crowd get to watch machine-grilled burgers.

450X_FTW > samssun 02/25/2016 at 08:45

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All jobs have value. And your statements make it sound as though almost all entry level or under $10 an hr workers are slackers, don’t come in on time, and are worthless to society

Shane MacGowan's Teeth > BigBlock440 02/25/2016 at 09:25

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Keep an eye on the funding of minimum wage increase movements. Almost always come from unions, who have high-priced (but more efficient) workers. An increasing minimum wage tends to make hiring one high-priced skilled worker a better proposition than two or three unskilled workers at minimum. It rarely actually helps minimum wage earners on the whole (IE, the wage increase is offset by those who lose their jobs)

Shane MacGowan's Teeth > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 02/25/2016 at 09:32

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And that’s just as much a myth. Employment A) changes (you get higher waged workers replacing low wage workers- if one guy can do the job of two teenagers, but his salary is three times minimum wage, if minimum wage doubles he becomes cheaper). B) A single city changing it’s wage has a ton of externalities that don’t apply to the nation as a whole- IE standard of living, percentage of people on minimum wage, nearby towns and connected economies.

And it almost always does fall. Not to the level of gloom and doomer’s predictions. But there is normally at least a slight depression in employment (again, because of above mitigating factors).

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/25/2016 at 17:25

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If the job creates 8 bucks in value, you’ll hire at 6 but not 10. Raise the floor to 15 and any job worth 8, 10, or 12 bucks an hour goes away or gets combined with another.

Entry level jobs like retail and fast food are low margin and high turnover, so hiring teens and those with no work experience is a risk because training them costs time and money. When you jack the cost of their labor up, you reduce their value, raise the hiring risk, and make it harder for them to get a foothold.

450X_FTW > samssun 02/25/2016 at 17:40

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High turnover because it’s easy to justify quitting a job when You can make 50 cents an hour more at a similar company doing similar work. Paying them more stimulates the economy, they’ll have more money to spend elsewhere

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/25/2016 at 19:58

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High turnover because they aren’t productive — if they were being offered more elsewhere you wouldn’t be setting an above-market minimum wage. Hiring managers don’t hire people to spend more money elsewhere. They hire to get a job done, unless it’s too expensive. The qualitative arguments are missing the quantitative side.

I think spending time in a retail/service environment would let you see the impact. Training kids with no experience is expensive, and overscheduling because they’ve never held down a job and may not show up is a constant concern.

I got extra hours & raises because I was dependable. High minimum wages make entry-level hires more risky & expensive. The marginal workers you’re trying to help will have their labor shifted to more experienced workers. A handful will work & make more, and a bunch won’t reach the bottom rung.

450X_FTW > samssun 02/25/2016 at 21:39

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Money makes people work harder. If you get paid more, you’re happier and you don’t want to lose your job because you’re actually making money.

samssun > 450X_FTW 02/25/2016 at 23:54

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Again, qualitative. Having worked for & with many folks who have to make the actual payrolls, the math hasn’t worked out even for large businesses (definitely not for small ones), so positions get eliminated.

But the beauty is no one is stopping you from hiring the world’s most expensive burger flippers, if you feel otherwise. Mandating price controls just won’t change the underlying math.